Elevating Results with User Research
with Ruben de Boer

Ruben de Boer is a lead CRO Manager and consultant with over 14 years of experience in data and optimization. At Online Dialogue, Ruben leads the Conversion Managers team, developing team skills and quality as well as setting the team strategy and goals. He spreads his knowledge far both as a teacher with Udemy with over 12,000 students and as a public speaker on topics such as experimentation, change management, CRO and personal growth.

In 2019, Ruben founded his company, Conversion Ideas, where he helps people kick start their career in Conversion Rate Optimization and Experimentation by providing affordable, high-quality online courses and a number of resources.


  • [1:28] User research and data-driven optimization opportunities. 
  • [4:29] Surveys, polls, and feedback tools for Ecommerce brands. 
  • [10:49] Polls and surveys for user research insights. 
  • [16:23] Using recordings for user research and feedback. 
  • [22:09] Using customer service feedback for optimization. 
  • [29:14] Audio accessibility, web usability, and ethical considerations. 


In this insightful episode of the Ecommerce Optimizers Podcast, we dive deep into the topic of User Research with our esteemed guest, Ruben DeBoer. As a leading consultant and CRO manager at Online Dialogue, and founder of Conversion Ideas, Ruben brings over 15 years of expertise in data optimization and experimentation.

Throughout our discussion, Ruben shares invaluable advice on identifying optimization opportunities through meticulous user research. He emphasizes the importance of crafting non-leading, clear, and simple questions in surveys and polls to truly understand customer needs and preferences.

Additionally, Ruben offers a comprehensive overview of various user research methods, including surveys, polls, feedback buttons, and customer service interviews. He particularly focuses on the subtleties of creating effective surveys and polls, discussing optimal question types, avoiding common pitfalls, and setting realistic response goals.

Moreover, the episode explores the often-overlooked treasure trove of insights available from customer service feedback, emphasizing its crucial role in the optimization process. Ruben also sheds light on the importance of web accessibility, underscoring it as not just a moral obligation but a vital aspect of enhancing user experience and boosting conversions.

Packed with practical tips, real-world examples, and Ruben’s expert insights, this episode is a must-listen for anyone looking to elevate their ecommerce game through effective user research-focused optimization strategies. 


Ruben DeBoer LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rgdeboer/

Ruben’s Business – Conversion Ideas: https://conversionideas.com/

Ruben’s CRO course (it’s a fantastic course!): https://www.udemy.com/course/complete-conversion-optimization-course/

Rubens’s LinkedIn post on Website Accessibility: Click here

Ruben’s LinkedIn Website Accessibility article (video mentioned is included in this article): Click here

Online Dialogue: https://www.onlinedialogue.nl/

Daphne Tideman LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/daphnetideman/



This episode is brought to you by Ecommerce Optimizers

At Ecommerce Optimizers, we specialize in helping Ecommerce brands in one focused area: and that’s making your website easier to use so that more of your visitors buy from you. 

An easy-to-use website delivers a highly intuitive, straightforward, and smooth experience throughout the customer journey – making it much easier and more enjoyable to do business with you. This translates into a wide variety of business-building benefits, including increased revenue, higher profits, and happier, loyal customers who buy from you time and time again. 

If you’d like to learn more about how we make Ecommerce sites easier to use and how our services might benefit your business, head on over to our website at EcommerceOptimizers.com and check out all the details.


Scott Reid 00:00
Welcome to the E commerce Optimizers Show. I’m your host, Scott Reid. For our new listeners, I always like to start every show with my quick definition of ecommerce optimization since it means different things to different people. As a specialist in this field, I view optimization as a continuous and evolving process with three core objectives, one, enhancing traffic quality to reducing traffic costs, and three refining the online customer journey. These aren’t just goals, they’re the pillars for scaling your business effectively. So why does this matter? Because when you blend these objectives together, you convert more visitors into customers grow revenue, cut costs, and boost your bottom line. It’s all about getting more for less, more conversions more revenue at a lower cost. Now this episode is sponsored by our very own ecommerce optimization hub, your essential tool for enhancing traffic quality, reducing traffic costs, and refining the online customer journey with the hub. Complex marketing data becomes easy to understand helping you to clearly identify what’s working and what’s not throughout your traffic and website. And the best part is that subscribers of the hub also get access to weekly optimization feedback and coaching from yours truly, you can take a test drive with our full access 30 day free trial, no credit card is required. And you can get all the details at ecommerce optimizers.com. So without any further ado, Rubin thanks very much for joining us on the show today. Why don’t you tell us a little bit about yourself and little bit about your background? Sure.

Ruben de Boer 01:38
Well, thanks for having me. Scott’s great to be on the podcast together. As you said, I’m Ruben I am the lead consultant and CRO manager at the word winning agency online dialogue, and FM company conversion ideas, with the goal to help people learn and excel in conversion rate optimization for affordable prices. I’ve been in the business for close to 15 years right now. And the bits of data optimization experimentation worked for lots of companies, both in Netherlands and outside the Netherlands, startups, scale ups, large multinational companies, and I enjoy I enjoy it a lot.

Scott Reid 02:19
Well, that’s a I think that’s an understatement. What you have done for the conversion rate optimization community really is unparalleled. In my opinion, the courses that you have on Udemy are world class, I would urge everybody, anybody who’s looking to up their game to learn from Ruben on Udemy. They are really something something else. So hats off to like in that regard. So today, what we were talking about before the show, what we thought would be a really good topic would be to talk about identifying optimization opportunities through user research. And data is one way to identify optimization opportunities, and there are many, but data is one of the top ones. And then user research is right there at the top on an equal footing, if not more, in some respects. So there’s a couple of different ways that you can conduct your user research surveys, polls, feedback, buttons, interviews, customer service, interviews, there’s all sorts of tools, techniques, tactics. So why don’t we start out Ruben talking about asking questions, because that’s kind of underpins when we think about conducting user research. A lot of it entails asking questions of users either verbally face to face, whether it’s through an online poll or survey. So in your opinion, when asking questions, what are the two types of questions that you want to avoid?

Ruben de Boer 04:01
Yeah, that’s a great question. And something very, very important over and indeed, often overlooked. Of course, with customer service, and one and getting a lot of reviews you. You don’t really need these rules. When you have interviews, polls, surveys, focus groups, usability tests, there are certainly a couple of things to keep in mind when asking questions. And first of all, we don’t want to ask like leading questions. And this is very apparent, very easy to do. While not being very aware of it, so a leading question could be something like, do you like our excellent website? What do you think of our fantastic products? Or how good are our filters? They’re all leading because they have like the excellent the good. And these this will lead the customer to give you a more positive answer. And then that might actually give when you’re not asking leading questions. So, do watch out for that do omit those excellent goods perfect stuff. Even though you’re probably very passionate about your product, your own website and your own filters. You don’t want to ask it that way to your respondents, because that will give you less reliable survey results, less reliable. Interviews, answers, and therefore you will not fully understand what your favorites are things off your website. So that’s one another one could be avoid absolutes. So never as a always or never. I will never do this. Will you always do that? Avoid those because there’s never an oh, there’s never an always that’s too extreme. There’s two absolute. So remove those from your questions. And other ones double barreled questions. So asking two questions in one like do you think our website should contain more filters and better product information? It’s really hard to answer for so long, because it’s as it’s asking two questions. Should it contain more filters? And should it contain a better product information? Instead, make the two questions. So really omit those asking, asking leading questions. Don’t use absolutes. And be careful with double barreled questions asking two questions in one.

Scott Reid 06:17
Yeah, and the double barreled questions is one of those things that you just I would never think of, you know, I think probably most people would would never think of, but it confuses the issue. And so I think what you’re saying when you’re saying don’t use those double barreled questions is don’t confuse the issue. And Cloud, it just have be very succinct and keep it simple. In terms of the question, in terms of eliminating that leading question, so you use the example I think it was how do you like our excellent website? How would you change that? So that it wasn’t a leading question?

Ruben de Boer 06:54
Even when asked the question, what do you think of our website? Okay, so just take

Scott Reid 06:59
out any type of any type of additional language around that just again, just keep it very simple. Okay,

Ruben de Boer 07:06
exactly. And which is also one, right, keep it clear and simple language amidst complex work, less common words, jargon, met all those industry specific, specific language. Use clear and simple language. Okay,

Scott Reid 07:19
awesome. Great, great, great tips. All right. So let’s get in start talking about user research. So there’s different ways that we can collect user research, a couple of those are surveys, polls and Feedback Tools. And why don’t we just talk about a survey right out of the gate? How would you define a survey Rubin?

Ruben de Boer 07:40
Survey is one or several questions, you can ask to your website festers customers. And you can display these questions on your website, or through a link on your website or email campaigns to a survey tool where you ask several questions. And these can be related to needs, behaviors, motivations, frustrations, everything, your website itself, everything related to the whole customer journey and the purchasing process of that potential customer.

Scott Reid 08:12
Okay, so pop ups on the site, email surveys, social media posts, those would be examples of surveys. And if we look at polls, because a poll is in essence, it’s like a mini survey. And exactly many times those are displayed in a pop up that comes up at the bottom of the screen with one sometimes two questions. What types of polls do you recommend that ecommerce brands adopt to identify optimization opportunities?

Ruben de Boer 08:46
Yes, I basically like to just take three or four polls, you can have an entry poll, when someone lands on your website after a couple of seconds or after scrolling for a bit, you can ask the person what her or his intentions are, what they expect of your website, what they expect of your page, to see if their expectations match the content of your page. And if it does not yet have some good upper optimization ideas for that. So that’s the entry one, you also have exit one, and exit one on desktop is based on when someone moves their cursor of their mouse to the top of the screen at a certain speed, it triggers an exit pop up it the program will think the user leaves the website and can simply ask them why they are leaving the website. What is preventing them from from completing their purchase today? Or is anything missing? Is there? Are they missing information? Or are there any doubts or hesitations? And this really helps you to see why people drop off and where you should optimize. Of course a mobile you don’t have a currency you don’t have a mouse. In that case, you can do it after like one half minute. Let’s say the average time on page which you see in your data is is one half minutes. Then after, let’s say one and a half, two minutes ask the same question if they have any hesitations or doubts, if the entry to exit, you also have the thank you page where Pfister’s already completed a purchase. And you could ask them if you could improve anything on the checkout, or why they decided to buy with you today. To get those motivations to get that extra information for optimization, a fourth one could be for your current customers, if you have digital products, or if you could send them an email, and ask them how they liked the product and how the product is improving their life or solving their problems. And of course, that’s kind of your value proposition which you can then again, use on your landing pages to motivate potential customers to become actual customers.

Scott Reid 10:49
That’s awesome. I can attest from personal experience, obviously, with our clients that polls is just a treasure trove of useful information. And another thing too, that having polls at certain parts of the customer journey. So if you saw within your data that there was a high cart abandonment rate, you could put a pole in the cart, and why don’t we just talk about that quickly? How would you recommend structuring a poll in the cart, if that was identified as an area of drop off that might be abnormal, so to speak?

Ruben de Boer 11:25
Yeah. And it’s how I like to do it as well. So I start with, with actual data with numbers, to find out what is happening on the website. But the data tells you so much, right, it tells you what is happening on your website, it doesn’t really necessarily tell you why something is happening. So indeed, when you see large drop off from the car page. That’s when I would like to set up an excellent sample and ask the question, is there anything preventing you from finalize your purchase with us today, which could be a good one to get extra information of why people are leaving, maybe they find a better deal somewhere. Maybe they miss information, maybe they don’t like the delivery dates, there can be many reasons. And by showing this boy, you will find the reason or at least half an indication of what the reason is, of course with user research, always have to saying and doing what people say it’s not always what they will do. Because we’re humans, that we’re not that smart as we think. So when you have sufficient traffic, always a be tested. But user research will definitely give you a great indication of why people are dropping off in this case.

Scott Reid 12:33
Awesome. That’s great additional commentary, Ruben. How about Paul goals? In terms of number of responses? What’s your go to recommendation, when you’re teaching somebody?

Ruben de Boer 12:46
I usually aim for 100 to 200 Useful responses. And that can sometimes be quite challenging on websites with low traffic. So in that case, you could decide to make it a multiple choice question. And then of course, probably have an open ended question to get really get that unbiased information from your user. But generally 100 200 Useful responses will help you craft solid optimization ideas for your website, in this case for the cart. But

Scott Reid 13:15
from an expectation standpoint, if I’m not mistaken, isn’t about less than 1% of traffic will respond to a poll like otter there abouts, especially with those open ended questions. Yeah,

Ruben de Boer 13:27
I really, I really see differences between websites and thus between audiences. And for multiple choice questions. It’s much much higher. We’re open ended questions. And those are much better because they’re unbiased. It’s it could indeed be 1% or lower. If you find you have like really low traffic, just just test it out on our website. And if you find that you get not enough responses, then use the open ended answers which you have like 10, maybe, maybe 20. Use it for your multiple choice questions. So craft the same question into multiple choice question. Add the answers, which you already know, but also the answers you got. Maybe some surprising answers you got from the open ended questions which didn’t get answered in order to get Yeah, good multiple choice. Question.

Scott Reid 14:16
Excellent. Excellent. Thank you. Now how about in terms of tools? I know what the answer is to this, but I want to hear like a variety of tools. What do you recommend for tools for surveys and polls?

Ruben de Boer 14:30
I generally like it’s, of course, depends on your budgets, but I really like mouseflow myself, I like Hotjar a lot. They’re both in my courses, those tools. My clients use them. And for more extensive surveys. I like mopinion Okay, so those are three three good. I learned something

Scott Reid 14:53
new. What was it mopinion mopinion. It’s a

Ruben de Boer 14:57
good survey tool, which you can use you websit actually also like Usabilla a lot, but I heard rumors that Usabilla might stop somewhere next year. I love Yeah, I really, really liked it too.

Scott Reid 15:11
But is that a European country is a European company? Yeah.

Ruben de Boer 15:15
Yeah, it

Scott Reid 15:16
is. Okay. Well, so Haas

Ruben de Boer 15:18
founded in the Netherlands, but then was purchased by a think Survey Monkey. So yeah, not sure what, what’s going on there? It’s a rumor I heard lately. So therefore, I would say definitely, and for low, affordable prices, definitely mouseflow. If you’ve more to spend Hotjar, but on the user research, they have a bit more of the extensive survey functionality for polls is exactly the same. Yeah, and my opinion is really extensive survey wise.

Scott Reid 15:49
Okay, cool. And I think the biggest thing with all of these with any type of strategy tactic, new idea is just to get started, it doesn’t have to be perfect. And I know you’d agree with me on this sort of that, yeah, just get going with it. And with a poll, you know, sign up for a free trial, just get it going and stole it. You can use Tag Manager on most of these tools to install very, very easily. And and once you start getting that data, it can be so insightful, it is insane. The feedback that you can get from people that they freely share. And that can be good or bad feedback. And we like it all, probably even like the bad feedback more, because that shows us where we should focus on.

Ruben de Boer 16:36
Absolutely. As always, I like Darius to see those responses.

Scott Reid 16:39
Yeah, yes, some people are rather humorous. So it is good.

Ruben de Boer 16:43
Yeah. And a real real pro tip, if you are as guilty in attack manager. You could also send the let’s do multiple choice as much as your choice answers to your data platform like GTA four. And you can segment the traffic there and see what a difference in behavior is in the in the data based on what they answered in the in the pool.

Scott Reid 17:07
Exactly. Yeah, that is a great ninja trick. Ruben

Ruben de Boer 17:11
Exactly, exactly was more advanced. I mean, like you said, start somewhere, it’s, you can have your first pool up and running in five minutes. And sign up for a to get the snippet placed in the headache of your website’s either hard coded or using a Tag Manager. And you can really set up your first poll in a couple of minutes. And

Scott Reid 17:29
you have if, if I remember correctly, in in in your Udemy course, your CRO course that you have some poll questions, some suggested poll questions. So that’s that’s something that it’s worth the price of admission, just to get those those Rubin Tibor approved questions. Because at the end of the day, it’s how you ask the question. And we started this whole segment about asking questions in the right way. So I would just,

Unknown Speaker 17:55
you know, just like the course it’s already filtered out, indeed, it’s already Yeah, exactly. correctly.

Scott Reid 18:02
So, so great. How about the feedback button, we see feedback buttons? What are your What are your thoughts on that? I know that that’s something that that you recommend for a variety of different reasons, based on a number of factors. So why don’t we Why don’t we spend a little time on the feedback button? Another great way to get some feedback? Yeah,

Ruben de Boer 18:20
yeah, well, I honestly I like polls and surveys a lot more. The Feedback button is the button use, you generally see you on the side of the website, where you can leave feedback to several tools who have that functionality. And it allows for users do give feedback about your website, they can click the element they like to give feedback about. In some cases, they can leave, like a number or smiley, if they’re angry, sad or happy about something getting positive negative feedback, generally, you’ll see that people start reporting bugs and errors on your website, which is useful to find those, the response rate is even lower there. So if you have a lot of traffic, do switch it on if your tool provides that functionality, and see if it works, see if it gets useful stuff from it. And if so, leave it on. If not, then don’t use it. Again, do your data analysis for your user research to see what works and what gives you the best insights. Because

Scott Reid 19:21
at the end of the day, if you’re not if you’re not getting valuable insights, sufficient valuable insights, what you’re saying if I hear you correctly, it’s don’t display it because it’s just an unnecessary distraction that could take preventing somebody from taking that that most desired next action depending on where they’re at the customer journey.

Ruben de Boer 19:41
Yeah, and by the way, you should be absolutely sure that it doesn’t hover over your call to action button or your navigation for instance, or it’s a hide some information in the in the cart or checkout. So do be careful with it and do check it out. If it’s if it doesn’t hide any most important info very For the information and if you get useful responses, if you’re to assets, check it out, try it out, see if you get useful responses. And if so it’s nice. If not, there are many, many other resources you can use for user research.

Scott Reid 20:12
Awesome. So let’s go on to recordings. The use of recordings is something that can be very, very, very revealing. But there’s a pitfall with recordings, which is that it can be very time consuming. First off, what why don’t we just, if you would mind Ruben just talking about what a recording is for those who may not be quite as familiar as others, and then we can talk about some of the pitfalls and the best way to use those recordings to generate optimization ideas.

Ruben de Boer 20:43
Yeah, yeah. So recording is also many tools have recordings like Maslow Hart, Jr, clarity, crazy AK seen a lot of them, probably clarities

Scott Reid 20:51
I’m just gonna hop in for a second and clarity is 100%. Free. So that’s, that’s, that’s one thing that completely pulls the roadblocks down in terms of using recordings anyways. Yeah, sorry.

Ruben de Boer 21:03
Microsoft product enter free.

Scott Reid 21:08
What was that? That’s

Ruben de Boer 21:09
what some people say. I didn’t hear the clarity as to the best Microsoft products and for free. Oh, okay. Yeah,

Scott Reid 21:16
I would agree with that, too. Yeah, cuz I’m an apple.

Ruben de Boer 21:21
So yeah, session recording, recording. It’s always something recording. Basically, just record the whole session of the user, you see their mouse. Using the mouse hover over the website, you see them scroll, you see different IP, see them click, you see everything. Besides the webcam, ever, I don’t think you need it, there will be really the right issues. Of course, when they type, it’s probably hidden as you should. And there are some very strict rules when it comes to medical websites and children websites. So there is some privacy issues there. So do check it out before he set up a number of recordings. But it is very useful, like he said, but it is very, very, it can be very time consuming if you start looking at old recordings from beginning to end.

Scott Reid 22:09
So So what do you recommend in that regard to dial in on on high value recordings?

Ruben de Boer 22:16
Yeah, so I wouldn’t watch recordings to find customer problems and customer and obstacles on your website. Instead, I would look at your GA for data or whatever data platform you have. Find obstacles there where people drop off, for instance, or where they click back and forth a lot of times and check those recordings. And for those pages and see what is happening there. Why didn’t Why do people get stuck. So find a problem area, find that obstacle and watch recordings for that page and maybe the page before on a beach after to get a complete picture. But she’d been dead way find a problem area check a recording, not the other way around.

Scott Reid 22:58
So really what you’re we’re having this this recurring theme during this this podcast, which is using your data to identify an opportunity, then drilling down in it further. And so really what you could do is, you know, let’s just say if we go back to our prior example of high cart abandonment rate, we could use, we could kind of dovetail the use of a poll of an exit intent poll on the car. And then at this honor around the same time, we could also examine recordings at that point in the customer journey to identify a hypothesis or several hypotheses around potential optimization opportunities that we could then a B test. So these this user feedback isn’t just it’s not in silos, we can definitely combine them together to generate an identify these high impact optimization opportunities. Exactly,

Ruben de Boer 23:58
exactly. And like every every user research source has some biases in there. So the more used and the more complete picture you will get of what is actually happening and what what what your VISTA actually wants, and only gives you more clear picture better ideas for optimizing your website. Exactly.

Scott Reid 24:16
Awesome. So the next on our on our list, Ruben is the customer good old customer service department. Yeah, okay.

Ruben de Boer 24:26
Are you an important one? And

Scott Reid 24:28
that I I learned that from you a quite a while ago, and it has proven to be a I’m going to use the term again, a treasure trove of insights. It’s something that it’s kind of so obvious when you think about it, but it might not be obvious for everybody. And and so why don’t we Why don’t we talk about that because at the end of the day, your customer service department they are communicating with website had visitors every single day. And they’re doing anything phone calls, they’re talking to people directly, maybe a zoom call, emails, the chat log. And so why don’t we just drill into that? Because these questions, concerns, comments, complaints, praises, accolades. All of that is funneled through the customer service department. And it can really, I mean, we could have like five episodes on what you can do with customer service feedback. But let’s just talk about that for a little bit. Now,

Ruben de Boer 25:33
I think you mentioned all the important points already, it’s indeed such a treasure trove and often and neglected source in our line of work and optimizing our websites and digital products. But indeed, these are the people that are very knowledgeable about your website, visitors and your customers, they speak to them every single day from all those different sources. And they have so much information. And I can really recommend to a visit a customer service or sit with a manager. And sometimes you’ll see a data analyst within the customer service, sit with them to ask those those top gains, fangs, braces, questions, hesitations, and get that information and use it in your optimization practices on your websites and your digital products. As an added bonus, these people, when I look at big corporate buildings, there’s somewhere in a corner or on a floor where no one ever comes except for them. And now you be the person who actually fixes them, listens to them, takes them seriously. It helps you make a lot of friends within the organization, which really helps to get a better data driven, customer driven, experiment driven way of working within the organization. So there’s an added bonus.

Scott Reid 26:48
Yeah, that’s that’s definitely a great, great point. In terms of, you know, looking at the at the AV testing process, and the optimization processes, through holistic lens, you know, it really, what we’re doing is we are looking not just on the website, but we’re looking externally, and to identify optimization, opportunities, ideas, concepts, and that customer service department is one of the big ones. How often do you recommend, you know, talking with customer service? And just is it the customer service manager? How do you How would you approach that? Yeah,

Ruben de Boer 27:32
you have to find the right person. And it depends on how big the organization is and what they have, like I said, sometimes now See also Data Analyst within customer service, which is very interesting. And it’s I think it’s a very good approach. But I would say at least once a month, get those those questions, get an answer to those questions, which could be like, like we said, basically, the gains to beans, the braces, and the hesitation of questions they receive, which can be useful for your optimization. So once a month, you could also be fun to just spend a full day there and pick up the phone yourself once every quarter or every six months to see how they Yeah, what kind of questions you get, and how people respond.

Scott Reid 28:18
Excellent. How about additional user feedback? Do you have any thoughts on how many thoughts on that?

Ruben de Boer 28:24
Other sources? You mean?

Scott Reid 28:26
Yeah. Other sources for user fee? Yeah,

Ruben de Boer 28:27
we didn’t cover reviews yet. I think you mentioned the beginning. I mean, reviews are such a trail like, again, again, it’s a treasure, right? Because there’s so many review websites, from your products from your website, to independent review websites, like like Trustpilot, or G two, but also competitors websites, and their reviews of their products and websites that can be very beneficial. And now you can do big analysis of what people are seeing again, you can get the top five gains, pains, hesitations. But there you can also see how they’re saying it was their tone of voice. And you can test your own website’s tone of voice with that of your user.

Scott Reid 29:14
That’s such a great, let’s talk about that for a minute. It’s the the tone of voice that the that the customer is using in their feedback, whether that’s through customer service feedback, or through reviews, social media, what are the ways that you could use that tone of voice to enhance your copy or your messaging or your value props? I mean, what would what are all the different ways? Well, I, again, we could have five episodes on that but what’s a couple of things on looking at the tone of voice and drilling down into it?

Ruben de Boer 29:48
Well, of course the most easy thing is how which words they use and how they say things now they explain things. And is that similar to your website, I mean, you want on your website you want to show you’re one of them. You want to show you understand them, so you better speak their language. But another one and I like this one is definitely the one wrote several blocks about it was a good friend of mine and an excellent person also in the growth hacking space. She was working for a food supplement, which is healthy for your brain. So on the websites and the ads, it was all about healthy brain good for your brain better for your brain, etc, etc. When she started reading the reviews, barely anyone said the word brain they were talking about better concentration, less stress, better sleep, better health, a happier but no brain, right? So they just started testing with without changing the value proposition to match with the tone of voice of what you found in the reviews and thus in the customer and user research, which led to immense an immense increase in in conversions and new customers that

Scott Reid 30:58
are going to have to pull that one out. Because I didn’t read that. But Daphne has some great great content out there. She’s she’s really, really good. Great recommendation, we’ll drop her name in the in the show notes as well. So we’ve got a little bit more time, why don’t we talk about web accessibility? Let’s let’s finish with that. Because this is something that is I think, I don’t think I am going to I’m going to go on a limb and say I know that this is so unfortunately, not focused on nearly as much as it should be. And it represents something that is, I believe, an ethical thing to do. It’s a moral thing to focus on. It’s and it’s one that it’s also a good business decision to do this for a number of different reasons. I know Ruben, we’ve spoken about this in the past, and that there’s over a billion people worldwide that have an impairment that affects their ability to use the web. And so if you have an E commerce business, just by definition, your customers are using the web. So exactly. And how many people are in the world? Is it seven, 8 billion I mean, so it’s a it’s a very high percentage of people have an impairment that is causing them to have a difficulty navigating your website. They said it’s a moral ethical thing to focus on far too few sites do anything with this. And anyways, it’s just it’s something that I believe in, I know that you agree with me on this, that it should be very much at the top of the list of everybody’s 2024 initiatives to make your website more accessible to people with impairments. So what type of impairments are we talking about Ruben?

Ruben de Boer 32:58
Yeah, well, first of all, like, like you said, right, it’s a moral thing to do. And that should be reason enough. But if that’s not reason enough, it’s because so many people have an impairment, applying accessibility practices to your website, increase your conversion rate, if that’s not good enough, they’re also laws in place which which make you you have to keep accessibility in mind. These laws have been in the United States for a while already, and they’re coming in the EU as well. But like I said, the moral obligation should be enough reason to optimize your website for accessibility. And of course, there are many, many things that can hinder people from using your website. It’s good. And one of the biggest thing is colorblindness, I believe 10% of meals worldwide are eight or 10%. Something myself might have some sort of colorblindness. What percentage is it? Thought eight, somewhere eight or 10? Yeah, yeah. Unless specialist but I think was somewhere around that number. So that’s huge, right. But of course, also, parasites, blindness, death.

Scott Reid 34:10
What’s the motor control?

Ruben de Boer 34:12
Yeah, motor control. That’s what I was looking for. And of course, also make one dyslexia.

Scott Reid 34:17
When we think about things like, what are the impairments so if somebody has his hearing impaired, they’re not going to be able to listen to your video. And so having captions on the videos, if they’re visually impaired, then what is the is Alt Text? Is that what it’s called with images? So there’s a kook, could you just talk about that? Because that’s something that I was completely unaware of until, I don’t know maybe like a year

Ruben de Boer 34:46
ago. Now I get again, it works. It works the same way as the general optimization process, right? First, if you can do user research, so you can invite people with disability to go over your websites and purchase something and see if they get stuck somewhere. You also have several grown plugins that allow you to simulate being impaired in some way. So there are many, many options you can do. Let your cursor go back and forth like if motor control problems, you can have a color blindness. It can simulate, like you have that impairment and then try to purchase something on the website yourself. That already helps with, with understanding where you should improve. But there are also several checklists at all. And I look, we also have a checklist I placed on LinkedIn before I think I can show them show notes with the with the basics, which you have to get right. So your page should have a logical structure with good HTML, stating what’s a header, what’s an h1, what’s an h2, what’s a paragraph, because then the hardware and a software for people that have problems with the eyes, they can easily scan the website, tell them what they’re looking at, and they can use the keyboard to to navigate your website. But also, titles should look like titles right to make it easy to see. Your your navigation should be easy go through with a keyboard, not with a mouse. But with a keyboard, you should go through be able to go through your navigation, you should be able to zoom on your website, you should have the right font size, 14 pixels at least, but preferably 16, you should have a good color contrast. And there are different calculators for that online to have a good color contrast of every button, you can see the different colors, so don’t have like light gray on the white background because a lot of people will not see it. So just the best thing is, like I said the alt text for the image when people can see images, and autofill. For the forums. There are some basics which you have to get right in there. You already help a lot of people but still a lot of websites neglect this.

Scott Reid 37:00
And there’s a YouTube video on this. Is there not Ruben kind of goes through. Okay. Yeah, so

Ruben de Boer 37:09
different YouTube videos, indeed have one in my complete zero course where I show a video of a blind man and navigating through the website. It’s very insightful, because you see how it works and what’s needed for that person. Yeah,

Scott Reid 37:25
it’s really under adopted in our joint opinion requirements for a well done website or really any website.

Ruben de Boer 37:32
Yeah, but I’ve had several clients who did usability testing with impaired users. And that’s just great to see. Yeah,

Scott Reid 37:40
awesome. So we are out of time. But that, but we’re at the end of what we wanted to talk about, too. So it’s perfect. That was, that was a wonderful discussion. Ruben, as always, I just wanted to say, did you have any parting comments or that you’d like to you’d like to share?

Ruben de Boer 37:59
No, I think it’s crucial for everyone to understand our users. And therefore, user research is of utmost importance. Don’t guess why something is happening on our website, don’t guess why you see a drop off in your data. Because I see time and time again, both in our work but also in other lines of work. We are really bad at guessing and and estimating the impact of our decisions. So do talk to users do get to know users, because that’s where the real opportunity lies for optimizing your websites and your digital products.

Scott Reid 38:32
Excellent. Thank you very much, Reuben. That was a wonderful value packed episode as I knew it would be. We’d really appreciate it and I hope that you will visit again in the future. I certainly will. All right, Reuben. Thanks a lot. We’ll talk to you soon.

Ruben de Boer 38:49

Scott Reid 38:50
Bye bye.